Why Authentic Brand Storytelling Beats Flashy Marketing Every Time
PJ Towle didn’t set out to build a marketing agency. He set out to build relationships. As the founder of Forty:Three Creative, PJ has spent over 20 years helping organizations tell their stories in ways that actually connect with people. His approach stands out in a marketing landscape saturated with AI-generated content and cookie-cutter strategies. Instead of chasing trends, PJ focuses on understanding the human beings behind every brand.
The journey from church staff to fractional CMO taught PJ that effective marketing requires more than clever campaigns. It demands genuine connection. When working with clients like COVI, he doesn’t just gather brand guidelines and deploy templates. He sits down over coffee, asks questions about vision and values, and listens to the stories that shaped the business. This relationship-first approach means turning down work that doesn’t fit, connecting clients with better-suited partners, and sometimes spending hours on the phone with a client whose website got hacked during their busiest season. These moments define success differently than spreadsheets do.
Technology plays a critical role in PJ’s work, but never at the expense of authenticity. He uses AI tools like ChatGPT and Claude to capture client voice by feeding recordings of actual conversations into custom prompts. Tools like Asana keep projects organized, while platforms like Gamma AI speed up slide deck development. The key difference? PJ never publishes AI output without heavy editing. He treats these tools as starting points, not finished products. His co-op model brings together specialists in video, photography, SEO, social media, web design, and more, creating an ecosystem where relationship building drives referrals and shared success. When marketing feels more like songwriting than selling, businesses find their authentic voice and customers find brands worth trusting.
Episode Summary:
Discover how brand storytelling expert PJ Towle uses authentic relationship-building and strategic AI integration to help businesses connect with customers beyond generic marketing. In this episode, learn proven workflows for maintaining your unique brand voice while leveraging ChatGPT and Claude, why fractional CMO work creates deeper client relationships than one-off projects, and how a people-first approach helped one family business recover from a quarter-million dollar loss to achieve record-breaking sales of $1.4 million. PJ shares his creative co-op model, essential tools like Asana and Gamma AI, and practical techniques for using Story Brand principles to cut through the noise and build marketing that genuinely connects instead of just converts.
Key Topics:
-
Authentic brand storytelling requires deep listening and in-person connection, not just AI-generated content
-
Building a creative co-op of specialized partners creates better outcomes than competing for every project
-
The best marketing relationships happen when you prioritize the person over the project, even during crises
-
AI tools work best as conversational guides that augment your voice rather than replace your unique perspective
-
Taking eight minutes to genuinely connect with someone can transform both personal and professional relationships
Connect with COVI:
Instagram | Facebook | Website | FREE IT Strategy Analysis
Links to The COVI Way Podcast
YouTube | Apple Podcasts | Spotify
Episode Transcript
The COVI Way Podcast Ep. 14 - with PJ Towle
Cody: Welcome to the COVI way, the podcast where we break down the intersection of people and technology because IT shouldn’t just be about fixing problems. It’s about enabling people to do their best work. I’m Cody Lents, the VP of sales at COVI. And today we’re discussing the ensemble behind marketing with story brand expert PJ Towle, founder of Forty:Three Creative. PJ has been providing strategic creative direction to organizations since 2004 and over 20 years. He’s been ingrained in philosophical changes for marketing leaders and developing quite the niche for creating successful, creative marketing plans.
Well PJ, thanks for joining the pod today.
PJ: Glad to be here. How you doing?
Cody: Just fine. Yeah. Tired, but you know, have a coffee. We can run however we need to. Tell me how you got in, you know you started doing a lot of your creative direction consulting or whatever you want to call it, you know, at different organizations that you are a part of, whether it was a church or different nonprofit. And over time you’ve jumped into this really niche, unique spin on the story brand framework. Tell me a little bit of that journey.
PJ: It’s very long. It’s very wide. I came out of college and was working with churches and nonprofits and I was on staff at a church and had always been in the creative space. In that so was doing music. I was doing graphics and that kind of stuff and I’d actually gone to college to be a design major. I went declared art major, hated the department, the department hated me. It was just kind of one of those like I pushed back on them. They didn’t like that. We didn’t like it together. So I dropped out of that and kind of wrote art off for a while.
Got into working in the nonprofit space and all of a sudden like storytelling became a big thing in that right, like working at a church. You hear stories all the time. You’re connecting with people which is a lot of storytelling through all that and then I started doing graphics, started doing visuals for the church I was at. And in that process, reignited my love for art and brand and all that kind of stuff. So in 07, I actually started a business with a friend of mine who was doing the same thing, who was a teacher. We started a design business together that was really focused on helping nonprofits in particular with their branding, with their visual storytelling. We did some video work back then, but the main focus on that was like brand logo, brand identity kinds of things.
Through all of that, I’m working with all these different companies and different people that have these really interesting life stories that they’re connecting into their workspace as well. And so through that, I ended up finding just this spot where I’m like, I want to know about you. So even when you and I connect, and you know full transparency I know that’s something you guys do on the podcast, I did your website for COVI and so when we started working on that like I loved getting to know your story and Dave’s story and building relationships first. And I found just this really interesting spot in that all the way back in 07 where I’m working with people that I know but I’m hearing new parts of who they are.
Fast forward a number of years and I’m on staff at a couple of different churches through that time and really just felt like we were exiting a role in ministry and I needed something to do to pay the bills. And so in 2014, I leaned into the business end of things full time. I’d since gone out on my own, my business partner from before got into print. And so he was running some print stuff with different companies and schools primarily with yearbooks, doing school yearbooks.
Cody: I guess that’s still a thing.
PJ: Yeah, it is. My kids get one every year. Every year. And then the retouching of the photos, that’s another thing we pay for every year because we don’t want the kids to look back and be like, oh, I look so bad as a sophomore in high school.
Cody: I look like the bangs like right here and like the lines behind the background.
PJ: Oh, the shutter, the shutter. Everybody had those. Sitting on the stool. Funny. So you can track that. But anyway, so he had started doing that. So I was really focusing on this like brand management and brand identity stuff with people. And so in 14 leaned into it full time and just through connections that I had with people, my client book filled up really fast. And so really since 2014, I’m sorry, that’s not 2014, it was 2018. Let me get those numbers right for you. 2018, I leaned into that full time. So what does that put us at?
Cody: Numbers are hard.
PJ: That seven years now, seven and a half years.
Cody: Oh, yeah.
PJ: That I’ve been working in that space full time and so, yeah, it really the backstory is I needed to pay my bills. Here’s this like particular set of skills I’m good at, not like Liam Neeson or anything from the Taken movies, but in that context I just kind of leaned into what I knew and what I could do and how I could help people and have found just this way of connecting relationally so that you’re not losing that human element by trying to make connections with people. So helping them, helping my clients tell their stories in a way that instantly helps them connect with their customers is really what I do to get out of the bed in morning.
Cody: Yeah as a client I experienced that. You are trying to ensure our brand was a person that reflected the people who make up the organization. And that’s a lot different from a chat GPT, here’s your brand and here’s your strategy and here’s your Jasper content or whatever and to throw out some AI tools.
PJ: Yeah, and those are really important tools. They’re really helpful to speed a process, but they don’t capture who you are. They can get your voice, don’t get me wrong. Chat GPT and Claude and a couple of other tools that I have built a COVI voice for when I’m helping with your website with blogs and podcasts and all that kind of stuff or helping write some content. But when it comes down to it there’s something about sitting in the room with somebody and actually knowing them and being with them and sharing a meal or a cup of coffee or a beer or whiskey. You know what I mean and like getting to know them to make that come through.
One of the things I try to do with my business is like, I like to work with people that I want to be around. And so that just makes life easier for me. It makes the job better, makes my life better. It makes my wife happier because I’m not grumpy at the end of every day. Like some people who go to work and come home and haven’t enjoyed what they’ve done. So working that way, relationship first, people first has been really important for me.
Cody: Yep. I know that you have a band of partners that you work with and you call it the cohort. I believe.
PJ: Yeah, it’s like a co-op agency is the way that we work around that. So yeah.
Cody: Yeah, you said band and we have music instruments in here because of that whole concept and so you’re a musician, I’m a musician, Dave’s a musician.
PJ: One of the things we connected about all at the beginning, but that co-op really is just a group of other creatives that work in different ways, different things that I don’t niche in. So even the guy filming this podcast right now is one of those creatives. So Darren Cooper from 1898 creative.
Cody: What? But the…
PJ: Also a musician.
Cody: Also a musician, yep.
PJ: So all of us are fighting not picking up these guitars and playing right now.
Cody: Cut to the B-roll.
PJ: Have I told you that like over 50% of COVI employees are musicians?
Cody: Everyone I’ve met from COVI I think is a musician that I’ve talked to.
PJ: We were on a, we call it a COVI download. It’s like our weekly staff meeting, like all staff meeting. And so you almost always virtual and like it was probably maybe this time last year, maybe even later in the fall of last year, we’re all on there. I’m like, wait a minute, you play guitar too? And you do this and like, we started just like basically doing an impromptu poll. And I was like, you just need to start a band.
Cody: Well, if you’re on zoom, you guys are teams, aren’t you? I don’t know if teams does it, but I know zoom does this thing now where you can like push a button and it changes the live music thing so you can virtually rehearse with your other musicians.
PJ: Yeah, when they first came out it was awful.
Cody: Yeah, I haven’t used it.
PJ: My kids were doing virtual piano recitals and it wasn’t, it was difficult to control as a host. So therefore it made doing something like that really, really difficult. But that co-op back to, I guess back to content where we’re actually going, that co-op really works in a way that like I’m not the video guy, but Darren is. And so when a project comes to me, I can say, what do we need to do? What do we need to do to tell your brand story? How do we need to work this out? Oh, you need video? Great, I have a guy for that. Or if there’s a website build that somebody wants built in a platform that I don’t use, then I have partners that can help me with that. And social media, you know, there’s a love hate relationship with that.
Cody: I think everybody has a love hate relationship with social media.
PJ: True. So I have people that will help me with that. And so it’s kind of just turned into this little network ecosystem, if you will, where we’re all kind of picking each other’s brains and learning from each other and growing together and giving each other business opportunities. And then, you know, the rising tide raises all ships. So it’s just a different mentality than what I see in a lot of creative space. I think there’s a lot of scarcity mentality when there’s so many people that need someone’s particular skills. So being able to work with a group of people that I like that are friends, whether they’re musicians or not, but everybody finds their own little spot where they can work together is really, really great.
Cody: That’s awesome. You know, in the marketing space, there’s like a lot of noise. A good example of that would be when we started being more engaged in social media as an organization. I think I was using chat GPT for everything. And then I was scrolling on LinkedIn one day and I was like, everybody’s posts look exactly like my posts. And so then I was in a really heavily edited chat GPT version after that. Now I’m in a completely different workflow that allows me to be myself and post things that are unique to me as an individual, but still align with, you know, COVI’s philosophical perspectives and what we do in general from IT support and cybersecurity and IT strategy perspective. How do you help tighten up that noise and get that better tone out there for brands? Is that kind a…
PJ: Better tone, great guitar metaphor.
Cody: I try.
PJ: I think the big thing is, you know, every AI platform at the end of their output says, please proofread because we can make mistakes, you know, all that. I think that’s really important is to make sure you’re actually proofing it, not just putting it out there. For me, what I have found is working through a workflow that allows me to find your voice, right? So anytime I’m on a call with somebody virtually, and even lately I’ve been doing it even in person where I’ll just put my phone out and I’ll let them know of course, but record our meeting for what we’re talking about. And then I take that and feed that into AI so that then it starts to learn how they speak, what their actual voice sounds like, what their inflections are, what their tone is.
And then from that perspective, then I’ll feed that into another tool that will help me actually identify like the character archetype, like they work with, are they a caregiver? Are they an every man? Are they a sage? You know, there’s all these different archetypes in character and story development. And so then I can take that and build some prompts, build some documents that I can feed into project knowledge on the different AI platforms. And then things can just roll out. So now a perfect example is you guys are a handful of episodes into your COVI podcast. I can filter those out by Dave episodes or Cody episodes and build separate project knowledge based on who is speaking with the transcripts from these episodes. So then things start to sound the same. They start to sound like David, they start to sound like you. And in that process, the constant tweak that happens is between the person who the voice is supposed to sound like, myself, and the AI or whichever of these partners is involved in that. And so we can get a little workflow that works in that pretty well. But again, it’s that human element that isn’t getting missed.
I know that’s something you guys are really big about with your IT strategy is that it’s, you know, tech that works for people and with people, not just becomes a problem. Right. And so it’s a really similar focus and how we do that with the marketing as well, because it’s all making sure that it continues to sound like the brand voice. It continues to sound like the people from the brand. And then of course you can work the prompts that are like, be a critical thinker. That’s a big one. I’ve been using lately. Don’t just be a yes man. Don’t just give me everything that I need and agree with everything I say, but actually put critical thought into this. That’s been a big one. As well as like a humanized writing prompt. Don’t use dashes. Don’t use in conclusion or summary kinds of statements.
Cody: Like make it don’t use emojis.
PJ: Yeah, that why, why is that? I feel like chat all of a sudden was like let’s use emojis and everything.
Cody: Well, not that I didn’t have an AI expert in here recently on the podcast, but he would say I believe to some paraphrase a quote from him is an AI is just a toddler who’s trying to make you happy.
PJ: Interesting.
Cody: So they’re all yes, man.
PJ: My toddlers did not want to make me happy when they were toddlers. They were like little dictators running around my house. That is what it was like.
Cody: I know probably starting in like 2000, probably 18, 17 about when you were, when you were talking about you jumping in full time. I feel like the story brand book came out and there’s a bunch of story brand information and it’s whole storytelling in marketing and sales has been very buzzwordy. How do you make it something actionable, something that creates real outcomes, something that really impacts people and organizations, what they’re trying to do, whether it’s bringing more leads or get their voice out there in a better way so that people understand who they are and what they do, whatever the version is, how do you accomplish that?
PJ: There’s no one way for sure. Like everybody’s story is different. You know, just like every song that ever gets written is different. And the ones that are the exact same, you start to realize they’re the same. And it’s like you talk about with AI on Instagram and social media. Like you realize everything sounds the same and looks the same. And so how do you start to develop something different out of that? And so I read that book and I really connected with that marketing strategy is really what it was. I had read a number of Don Miller’s other books in the past and so I knew him, I liked the way he wrote, I liked the way he connected things and I, you know, it’s like a good movie or a good song or a good book. You find yourself relating to the story that’s going on in that piece of art and so I read the book and I really enjoyed the way that he talked about connecting that story and building that brand persona. And so using some of the free tools that were in the book, I started working it through with some of my clients and it really connected with them. And so from that standpoint, it’s not necessarily formulaic the way that you do it. So it’s finding those real people connections, finding those story elements, those moments that need to be talked about and shared and how you do that. So really what I have leaned into from that is I try to do as many meetings in person with people as I can.
And so sometimes you can’t do that. I’m working with a client right now that is out of state and it would be a big haul for either one of us to go meet. So we do a lot virtually, but then you’re seeing what my house is like. You’re seeing what my studio that I work from is like, I’m seeing his space, he’s giving me tours of spaces. And so there’s ways you can get around some of that, but I really try to do a lot of it in person because I feel like something happens when you’re together. You know, the old, we were talking about Starbucks earlier, the old like third place concept that Starbucks used to run after, I don’t know if you’re familiar with this.
Cody: No.
PJ: Everybody has places that are in their life, you know. Usually work and home are the two biggest places that people go and so Starbucks really set out, went before they were on every street corner everywhere their concept was let’s create third spaces. So you get to know the people that are working in the store. They get to know you it’s like Cheers.
Cody: You know where everybody knows your name and they yell norm as they’re all walking in.
PJ: That’s a pool. Yeah, that is actually my wife and I are watching Cheers through right now. She has never seen it. And so we’re watching it from the get-go.
Cody: You don’t realize how old something is because it’s such a cultural reference like Cheers until you actually go back and look at it and it was 1982 was the first season and you’re like that’s almost as old as I am.
PJ: Really insane and feels weird. But anyway, but in that process that whole third space like when you’re with someone something really changes in that conversation and so in the nonprofits I used to work with at the churches we used to talk about how coffee was a barrier that would break a wall between, could break a barrier between anybody. And so like there’s something about like a big huge linebacker holding a cup of coffee that all of a sudden he can connect to this little old lady that he’s never met before in a new way. And so I try to do a lot of those in person so we can get to know each other we can figure things out together we can learn and then there’s also you know, trying to be that real talk.
I mean, I know I might not be your marketing guy. I may not be the guy that you want to work with long term, but I might know the guy who is. So let me help connect. And so there’s something in that piece that being able to walk alongside someone helps learn the story in a different way. And so then when we take that into the marketing space, we try to find that common language and that common persona to put into all of that. So talking about IT strategy is not the most fun sounding thing for most people out there, right?
Cody: You don’t say.
PJ: And in that process though, like when you’re with people and I’ve seen, you know, different videos and pictures that have come around from you working with customers that we use on the website or some of the marketing stuff, but like you connect with people and you can see how that works. And it makes a big difference rather than just constantly trying to sell them something. And so for me, that’s the big thing. It’s like, how are we being real? How are we being authentic? How are we telling a story that people want to hear and want to connect with? And I think everybody has a story and every business and brand has a story.So whether that’s put out through a story brand or put out through some other marketing framework, I think it helps people connect beyond just a sales process. And we can’t, we won’t buy from someone until we can see them, know them and trust them in many instances. That’s why video is so important because they get to know you, they get to know what you look like, what you talk like, how you feel in person versus just on the zoom call in person.
I mean, COVID changed that a lot, right?
Cody: Yeah. I was going to ask you about that with your in-person thing. How often and what kind of tools do you use to collaborate with both clients and the cohort or the band of band of niches that you band of niches? That’s a good band name. We should trademark that one right now.
PJ: Yeah, honestly, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen when COVID hit for my business because this creative consulting thing that I’m doing was all this in person. But then all of a sudden, like everything had to go virtual. And so I find myself coaching my clients like, oh, hey, your camera angle could be better. Oh, don’t sit in front of your, don’t sit in front of the window in your house because now you’re just a silhouette the whole time. And so that actually really helped my business grow because it was let me help you connect to your people that you’re selling to or your team that you’re trying to lead virtually by, you know, these little things, change your camera, change your lighting, change your shirt, you know, people that were doing the, you know, that was five years ago now, but like the virtual background thing wasn’t always great. And if you, it’s still not, but if you have the wrong color shirt on it blends in and then you start to lose parts, you know, whatever.
Cody: It looks better for people without ears. I’ve noticed if you don’t have ears, you look pretty normal in your virtual background.
PJ: I just don’t. I have a little process that I set up that was a good depth of field in my camera. So my studio blurs out really well in the background. And that’s what actually started the consulting stuff on that was people started saying, oh, I didn’t realize I was gonna be on a podcast on this Zoom call today. Like, oh no, but I can show you how to do this if you want. So we worked some of that. And so that actually really helped my business because it was this concept of how do you figure out in person when you can’t be in person. And so now that things are back to normal, for the most part, I mean, normal is an operative word, I guess, but as things have continued to grow that way and more is being done virtually and remotely.
You still want to figure out how to have those moments of, you know, togetherness, even when you can’t be your download and being able to run that poll and have a conversation that’s open-ended and real and is really, really important. So Zoom is a big one for me. Google Drive, Dropbox, you know, for storage. Those things are really big. Creative Cloud from Adobe is a big one for me. I started working with a systems guy here a little over a year ago that I was already using Asana for my project management, but like he laid into it so well and showed me these processes that for me it’s like I live in Asana. Like if it’s not in Asana, I almost missed picking my kids up from something the other day because it wasn’t in my Asana calendar. It was on my personal calendar, but it wasn’t in Asana. And I was like, oh shoot, I’m gonna be in big trouble with my wife. So luckily she called to remind me right before I needed to leave. So that was big help.
Cody: I think my favorite pseudo tech tip here, my favorite. Is that a new segment in the show the pseudo tech microtech interruption. My favorite thing that I learned as part of our adoption of Asana was in going through their quick training videos right when we first grabbed it. You know like every task should begin with an action word. And I was like that’s gold. Like just realizing how much easier it is to get something done when you don’t think, you don’t have to think about what you’re doing. You’re just like, oh, I need to go create this thing now. I need to go research this thing now. Like you just, the mental barrier that it removed, I had no idea how impactful it would be. But it was really awesome.
PJ: I tend to be the guy that jumps out of the airplane before the parachute’s on all the way. And so I’ve been using Asana for probably 15 years now and had never heard that tip before and so I started talking, started working with this systems guy, his name is Dustin by the way, so if I refer to him anymore. But in that process, he says that to me and I’m like, well that sounds dumb, cause like now I have to think about what action word to use and I find myself constantly doing like create or research or develop or, but now I’ve found these like few that make sense and it gets me in the right head space to know that I need to go do it.
Cody: So you can triage your tasks by where your brain is the time if I’m a creative flow I’ll go to all my create tasks.
PJ: Yeah, I don’t even filter it. I just do a quick, yeah, search and go that’s a good idea though I hadn’t thought about like running a filter to do that. So in the process, I think it’s all about like what systems work for you. But that one is a huge a huge one. The other one that we just found was the sort by due date.
Cody: Oh, yeah.
PJ: And then just run this week. And so then you like Thursday afternoon, like, wow, I’m already done with the whole week. What do I have for next week that I can get ahead on? And so that’s been a big one as well. But there was a period in there where I was trying to work off calendar view and Asana.
Cody: We’re totally on an Asana binge right now. I hope that’s okay.
PJ: Not so micro tech tip. Yeah. I’m, but I’m, working from calendar view and I’m getting totally overloaded because like, everything is color coded by different client for their colors. And so I’m seeing all of that and I’ve got my words and I can see that, but like I’ll look at a day and I might have 15 things I need to do for any given project any day. And then like, I’ll check them off, but they don’t go away. Like they just gray out. And so I’m still constantly seeing this whole huge. So then I’m still seeing everything from my, my, my day today or my day yesterday that’s still taking up mental space. And Dustin’s like, well, just hide completed tasks. So I pushed a button and like you feel your brain just go oh. There’s like mental clarity that comes from not having to see everything and all the time.
Cody: A true inbox zero.
PJ: Yeah, yeah, well, that’s another one actually that I work with really really hard. I use spark email. I’m a Mac guy. So it actually back before Apple Mail would let you run multiple accounts with different signatures at the same time. I started using this and I’ve got a number of other people that are on it as well in that little cohort co-op. And so in the process of that now, like you can do like the thumbs up emoji response, sticker response to it in emails and that kind of stuff, which speeds some things up and then doesn’t feel like you have to do, you know, full blown email responses to everything. So it also…
Cody: Microsoft rolled that out about a year or two ago as well.
PJ: I have, I have not been fully integrated on Microsoft since probably like, goodness, probably 07. It’s been a long, long time since I have been. Anyway, so those are a handful of them, of the tools that I use. We already talked about chat and Claude are too big in my process. There’s another one that I’ve been using to like concept slide decks for clients is called Gamma AI.
Cody: I use Gamma.
PJ: That one works really well. The visuals are usually not great because they’re all typically AI driven. But if you don’t need photos in or correct photos, I guess maybe there’s a better way to say it. But that’s another one that I’ve pointed a lot of clients to when they’re concepting how they’re going to do presentations. And that’s what I use when I send you the PDF versions of my blogs.
Cody: Oh, that’s good to know. I didn’t realize that.
PJ: So you just dump it all into gamma.
Cody: And then I go through and edit the layout or heavily edit the pictures.
PJ: Which is the thing that people always miss in the AI process is they don’t edit. They just think it’s good enough and done. So good call, well done.
Cody: Thanks. I think that’s just my little bit of perfectionism, but that’s all right.
PJ: That’s okay, that’s great. It’s really, really important. In your, we understand that you’re using Spark email and different cloud storage solutions like Dropbox and Google Drive. When you were, I’m gonna use the term building out with pencil here and not pen. When you were building out that cohort, more like connecting all those dots together, I know you didn’t focus on a bunch of generalists that were just gonna come together and help with capacity and all of that. How were you identifying their subject matter expertise and getting that into your 1980s Rolodex for when to call who and all that.
PJ: A lot of it came out of just honestly just out of relationship. So a lot of us were actually on staff with churches or nonprofits in different capacities before. One friend in particular, she’s a graphic designer, photographer and Squarespace web designer. So like I do all of those things too. But the way she does photo is different than what I do for photo. And so because I’ve watched her and been around her for so many years, I can say, Kristen, I need you for this kind of photo shoot, so come with me. Versus, oh yeah, I worked in a photo studio in high school and college and was the second shooter at weddings, like the candid guy. So I’m way better at that. And she’s way better at the posed portrait photography or like developing the process of what needs to happen for something where I’m just like the guy that’s taken, I did a shoot last weekend and took a thousand pictures in four hours because it’s just take everything and see what you get.
Cody: She’s way more. That’s what I do for taking pictures for people like when they’re trying to do selfies.
PJ: Can you help I’m like, yeah, I like to take like 800 shots. I’m like one will be good, right?
Cody: I’m the guy that always like sees somebody trying to do the selfie of their family and they’re not gonna fit and so I’m like, hey, can I help you got to take one for you there always like oh, that’s so great. Thank you. I’m like, okay I’m gonna take a whole bunch now this way now this way I’m sure I embarrassed my kids immensely when I do that, but it’s part of the joys of parenting.
PJ: Oh, yeah embarrassing your kids is a is a joy for sure when we find the people that do those things, the different things and work those out to help them find who the right people are in the Rolodex. It really does boil down to relationships. You know, if you’re SEO is another big one that we work with and I have a couple of partners that do that, but they do it differently, but it’s still kind of the same. But like figuring out who’s going to be a better fit for which client and how that works is, is really how that boils down because I’ve known these people for a long time and it’s all building relationships and I can see what they do. Sometimes we get brought in on projects together by a client and then build a working relationship that then we refer each other on other projects down the road. And so really it’s just, it’s a matter of finding the right connections and building the right relationships. People that have that scarcity mindset are probably not gonna work real well with me because I will share anything and everything. Like here’s what I do, here’s my process.
Talked to a guy yesterday who’s starting a small SEO business and he’s like, I don’t like my contract. Can you send me yours so that I can have it as an example? I’m like, yeah, absolutely. I don’t care. Like help. Let me help you out. And so working with people that have that same kind of abundance mindset is that Malcolm Gladwell that talks about the difference between scarcity and abundance and that. And so that’s just been a really big one for me to pay attention to when I’m talking to different people about can we work together? Should we work together? And then if not, the relationship probably isn’t gonna go anywhere, but I’ll still keep their stuff in mind because they might be a good fit for someone. There was a company that I did some branding for a handful of years ago and was at the end of my contract and they wanted to look at re-upping and I’m like, I’m not able to right now because of some other projects that I have and they’re like, but we really need X, Y, Z. I’m like, cool, talk to this person who’s a friend of mine who can run after that.
And now they are his biggest client. And so it was a win for the company, it was a win for my friend. Therefore it was a win for me because it was all about relationship building. And so they now when I see them and talk to them, they’re always like, man, thanks for building that connect because it’s been so great for all of us. I’m like, that is a win in my book.
Cody: Tell me about one of your favorite projects.
PJ: Well, the COVI website was one of my all time favorite websites.
Cody: It should be the one. come on.
PJ: I love that brand like starting brands. I think I’m kind of drawn to that natural entrepreneur pioneer mentality. You know those that’ll build the airplane before that’s not how it goes. It’s they’re building the I don’t even know they’ll be played in flight. Yeah, there you go. That’s the one. They jump out of the airplane before the parachute is on all the way. So I’m drawn to that. And so I love starting things with that. There’s one actually that I’ve got, there’s a client of mine that long time friend, we’ve played music together. We’re bringing it all back to music. He’s a killer drummer, great guitar player. He runs a business, family business, been in business for 25 years and three, almost three years ago had a marketing guy on staff that made some strange marketing decisions in my mind, changed their website URL, tanked their SEO, long story short, it was just odd. But they ended up being like almost a quarter of a million dollars in the hole, in loss that year, based off of where projections were supposed to be. So I came in, that guy ended up leaving of his own accord, they had put everything back.
And he, my friend brings me in to be like, hey, I need help. I need you to help do this. And at this time he’s running towards a couple of different directions in his marketing strategy. I said, let’s stop, let’s refocus. Let’s push it all back towards, you know, Midwest values, family business, your kids are here. Your friends, kids are here, you know, that kind of thing as you’re growing this to build that trust with people. We brought in social media, we brought in some video, we did a handful of different strategy pieces. We brought in a guy specifically who was a Storybrand certified coach to help us put together some direction for where some things were going. Through that whole process, like started to turn the ship.
Just about a year in to the process, all of a sudden this is going to get into your territory. His site got hacked because of something that the previous marketing guy had done in their host that left something open in the back door that I don’t know to look for because I haven’t set it up. I’m not that specialist, yada, yada, yada. So we end up working with, this is before I knew about COVI, but we end up working with an IT company to help us get all that put back together and strategized and is now secure and safe. But like he had a two day window in their busiest online sales season where his site was down. And so we processed through all that. I lost hours of sleep. I think a lot of the gray in my beard is from that and my 13 year old daughter. But in the process of working all that through, like it was client first, not business first. So in that process, again, I know the guy I’ve known him for over a decade at this point. And so we’re working, I’m on the phone with him talking to him about him, not about the problem that’s over here, because it’s getting fixed. Like it’s well on its way with security to get taken care of. And so in that process, once it was all done and back up and everything was locked down and fixed and working really well, he called me one day and he was like, you have no idea what those phone calls meant to me. And I think those are the things that like kind of light my fire for business and for relationship is when we have those kinds of conversations with people that turn into you have no idea what this means to me. You have no idea what this has done for my family. Like that’s a win for them, for their business, for their longevity, which is good for me and my business. It’s good for me and my family. You know, it’s collective growth. And so the best part about all that, so you know, we tweaked some branding through the whole process. We revamped the website. We’ve launched multiple linked websites to help with landing pages and different things and SEO. And we’ve worked with an SEO company that’s really driving things well for him, working with, you know, the Google business profile. So last year, 2024 was his highest sales record of 24 years in business at that point. And so and they’re on pace to do that again this year. And so to watch that growth from here’s my loss, like tangible numbers, to here’s the 1.4 million we did last year in a two year time span. It’s not, obviously it’s not instantaneous, but to watch that growth over a two year span and be building that relationship and be helping him grow the business and be helping them relationally build their culture internally and externally as well. Those are the kinds of projects that I love.
Cody: Yeah, that’s awesome. I heard in your story a lot about how just choosing to connect with people and be there for humans leads to personal fulfillment and business success at the same time, which I feel like in the narrative that we get, whether it’s from our college days or just what we read in Wall Street Journal or whatever it is, the narrative doesn’t usually connect those components. It’s like a customer service perspective that might be like, well, it’s all about the people. But typically it’s all about the numbers.
PJ: Yeah, but I think everything, everything about what we do in business is about the people, even numbers. Like when you really break it down, people say you pay attention to what you care about. And so if all you care about is the numbers and the money I think that’s gonna show and I think that you know personally and professionally you’re gonna have a completely different persona, completely different vibe than what a lot of people do and so and what a lot of people connect with. I saw a thing just this last week from Simon Sinek. He was talking about, he was having dinner at a friend’s house and went over to her apartment and he says, so how you doing this week? And she says I was really really struggling this week and he goes well why didn’t you call me and she goes I did and he pulls out his phone and shows the camera in this clip. He’s like no you didn’t call me like it’s it’s not here and she said well I texted you and so he pulled up the text and he’s like you mean these three texts of hey are you busy for dinner Thursday night? Hey, what do you like to eat? You know the way you always text me and he said she’s like they stopped and they had this conversation. They came up with this little shorthand. That’s like when you need me, let’s come up with our shorthand and figure this out and we can talk about it because I will put my things down to be there for you. And he said, it takes eight minutes for somebody to connect and feel connected to so that they’re not feeling alone. And I’m like, eight minutes is nothing. So that’s their shorthand is like, hey, can I have eight minutes of your time? He said, I will walk away from a meeting for eight minutes to be able to talk to this person about whatever is going on. So it was a challenge to find ways to connect with people, to find out where they really are and how they’re really operating. And so to me, that process is kind of natural. If you’re into the disc profiles, I am 100% I, like influencer, like love relationships before anything else. But then my secondary characteristic is really high D in dominance. And so I’m like 90% in that.
Like I will have a clear mind direction of where we want to go, but I’ll put it through my filter of relationship first. But then I will flip that in my adapted. And so I will say, no, this is the way that we’re going. And then once that adapted moment where I’m under stress or whatever, peels back a little bit, I always then turn back to the eye and go back and be like, okay, are we okay? Are you okay? How are we? Let’s figure this out and take the eight minutes and whatever. So I think when you put people first in that and put their process, their mentality, making that real connect. It just makes everything better.
Cody: Yeah. What’s next for you in Forty:Three?
PJ: Oh, goodness. Well, next on my docket today is to go have lunch. But really it’s kind of the what’s next. So a lot of my business right now is fractional CMO work. And so that that co-op really helps with that, right? Because I can kind of farm things out and talk with different people and bring them in on different projects. And so I have a couple of let’s let’s call them pitches, which I hate calling them that, proposals out to people about doing some fractional CMO over the next 12 months or so on a couple of businesses, one that’s a startup, one that’s already existing and already running business. And so like going out and learning what they do, how they do it, the song that they sing if you want to go back to the music metaphor, to figure out how we can amplify their brand. It’s kind of what’s next for me. So growth mindset on my front is looking at what my next whether it’s a co-op another co-op person that I need to bring in or is this a like no, I’m kind of at the point where I need to start hiring people which is super scary.
And it very much is trying to grow a business was not ever really in my like it wasn’t a feather I was necessarily trying to stick in my cap as I was that wasn’t a bucket list item.
Cody: No, no, not at all. I mean my bucket list items are like visiting Glacier National Park.
PJ: Going to Australia, you know. But I don’t have I didn’t have this in my mind to do and it’s just kind of happened that it’s working and it’s growing and so.
Cody: Yeah, I don’t know.
PJ: I think it’s running after CMO work because of how much more relationship you can build that way rather than just doing a website or a one-off project and so. Yeah, but that’s where I think things are going but we’re also kind of in the process of working out like what’s my five-year plan? What’s my ten-year plan look like? I look at it. I’ve got a kid going to college in two years. You know, crazy one going three years after that, so I’m like I know I don’t want them to walk out with tons and tons of college debt. So those are all the things that are playing in the back of your mind as you’re trying to build a business is what do I need to do to support my family and then support my kids so that they can support themselves and how do I make them functional members of society and all the things kind of run together in a really strange way.
Cody: You mentioned with the website hack that’s where we’re with like domain management or whatever. And what you’re talking about right now, I’m thinking of there’s a part of the way that I consult strategically for technology for people is understanding what their end goal is for the business. And like you said, getting to understand how things work and why they work that way and all that, that’s all part of building that strategy. Starting with outcome first, one of my favorite memories with a smaller client when I asked the question, like, well, what’s success look like for you? And he’s like, well, I kind of want to franchise this and then get it to where I’m not actually working in the business anymore. But like, really, I just want to make sure that my retirement’s good to go and my kid gets through school. And I think I could help them with the down payment on the house. I think those were like the big things. So the way that you develop, I’m assuming this is the same in marketing, so correct me if I’m wrong, but from a technology perspective or an IT perspective, the way that I would strategically advise them is a little bit different than somebody who’s trying to grow a staff of 50 from a staff of five. This is I want to stay a staff of five and scale by outsourcing or scale by secession. And like, that’s a whole different plan because I mean, Windows 10 expires here in a couple months. I’m not gonna tell you that it makes a lot of sense for you to buy 500 new computers if you’re just gonna sell your business in December.
We’re gonna find a different way even though the best long-term technical move is to put a new computer in place. Yeah, more likely than not for that particular organization. That is not the best move.
PJ: Well, I think that that’s why I like COVI’s process. I mean to nerd out I don’t know if everybody knows this and this was not planned in our conversation, but like I love the COVI logo, which I did not create. Right, this CO is greater than I like you are working that and you live that out in a way when you do that kind of thing. And so I think at least for me, absolutely, it’s the same in marketing because the right thing might be a full blown new website that you’re spending, you know, $25,000 on, but maybe what you really need is just a cleanup. You just need a fresh coat of paint. You know, you might not need to do the full blown thing for the long term because you don’t know what’s coming and they don’t know what’s coming. And I think some of that ambiguity is okay. And we as people in business and service industries, right? Like knowing that people don’t always know is really important to be able to be okay with that and then walk along that process with them. And so for me, at least that’s when those relationships really build is because I’m walking an unknown path with them.
Cody: Yeah, that’s really good. I’m going to transition to the tech tip. Great. He gets out of here. Did you have anything else on your heart? You wanted to say.
PJ: I don’t think so. Thanks for having me on.
Cody: Yeah, absolutely. I know we already did an Asana primer for a tech tip today. One thing I wanted to jump into, and we did talk about a little bit, and that is that when using AI in the marketing space, you’re typically going to be jumping into either planning or social media posts or other content and in doing that, make sure that you use AI more as a conversational tool to help guide your thinking process and augment what you’re doing instead of replacing your voice because your voice is your greatest asset.
PJ: Yeah. If I can tag onto that too, I would also say always use a paid account with those AI tools. Don’t just use the free one. You know, these large language models learn from what you upload. And so if you’re using business documents and you’re uploading, what could be considered proprietary things, they will just be out there and be helping other businesses, your competitors be learning and growing from what you’re already putting into it. But from what I understand, terms and conditions with the privacy with the AI models is if you’re behind a paywall, you’re only training your own.
Cody: So they are also releasing offline models.
PJ: They take that another layer. You download the application. There you go.
Cody: Use that where it’s not interfacing with the entire back end of the tool.
PJ: That’s like three tech tips in one. What a tippy day.
Cody: I know.
Today, we jammed with someone who believes brand building is more like songwriting than selling. From AI assisted creativity to cloud based collaboration and from empowering creatives to helping businesses find their voice, PJ reminded us that real marketing connects, not just converts. If you’re tired of all the noise and ready to make music with your brand, check out Forty:Three Creative. They’re the real deal. Find PJ and his band of marketing pros at fortythreecreative.com. And don’t forget to spell out those numbers.
